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Thread: 2021 Caterham CSR "CatKong"

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Ohio
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    62

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    A peak into a CatKong like build at a track!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u19iZZp639Y

    The closing speed is crazy on the other vehicles.

    And then the 2.5 liter variant.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpfsKJhKFts

    Croc, your going to need a double coating of that paint overcoat
    Last edited by seschm1234; 10-14-2020 at 08:28 PM.
    2007 CSR 260

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    151

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    Roll cage. HANS. Roll cage. HANS.
    1997 Caterham, BDA
    1991 Miata, supercharged
    2017 VW GTI

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Austria Salzburg
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    15

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    my complements

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    USA
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    589

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    Quote Originally Posted by Croc View Post
    The current problem is getting a Caterham wiring harness to talk with the upgraded ECU. Having the UK shut down with their infection issues has made this challenging. Likely requires engineering a connection solution from scratch not an easy task I am the first to admit.
    I went through this as well, getting the MBE 9A4 working with the Cosworth YD8048 engine loom. I'm not sure if there may be pin assignment differences between the ECUs or the harnesses? Happy to help if I can.
    Sean

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Higganum, CT
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    1,734

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    Congrats Mike, really loving this build!
    Bruce

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2020
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    13

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    This is super-interesting, Mike. I am harbouring some similar thoughts but whereas your build is intended to be an ultimate track car, I'm thinking about making the best road-car that I can - so similar approach but with different specs and priorities at component level.

    You mentioned that CC supplied the car as a glider but in the pictures of the car being built in the factory it seems to have a Sadev fitted and, I presume, at least a block in place as the primaries seem to be fixed to something and pointing in the right direction! Can you shed some light as to the extent that CC were able (happy?) to supply without the driveline mechanicals in place?

    James

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    110

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    Croc - Make sure you use a billet or forged crank in the 2.5L Duratec

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    NYC
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    5,261

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    Just realized I never responded to a bunch of comments on this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vovchandr View Post
    We know it will take the power/speed title, pretty sure you're also taking the invoice crown from the certain orange Cat.
    No chance on the invoice crown. The orange car was at least another 50% more. I am not in the range of beating that.


    Quote Originally Posted by rnr View Post
    Looking forward to seeing it running. Out of curiosity did you consider the RST or Hartley V8s as engine options?

    Hi Rahul - hope you are well? I did consider RST, Hartley and the Synergy V8s.

    RST produce the 2.4L v8 with 500hp as originally developed for the Caterham Levante
    http://www.rsperformance.co.uk/

    Hartley produce a variety of engines with the headline being a 2.5L to 3.3L V8 with 420-500+hp. The owner of the business installed one in his Caterham
    https://www.h1v8.com/maxi-v8---specs.html

    Synergy have a 2L-3L V8 with 400-500+hp
    https://www.synergypower.co.nz/


    Not sure Hartley are producing much these days - never got an answer to my phone calls.

    I also considered a Millington inline 4 engine. 2L to 2.8L and up to 370hp in an inline 4 package.
    https://www.millingtonengines.co.uk/new-engines/



    With the v8s, they are highly strung, quite difficult to put the entire package together in a bespoke build like this, marrying up to the constraints of a Caterham wiring harness and driveline size/packaging limitations. Then you have the refresh cycle. These engines would require a rebuild at fairly frequent intervals with heavy track usage. Not sure on the Hartley but the Synergy and RST were looking at every 2-3000 miles. The Millington is a more robust package but even so. I went to the workshop to see them being built and find out how easily the engines operate. The Millingtons have a very precise warm up and cool down process and maintenance cycle. Similar for refresh. RST, Synergy and Millington are based internationally - how difficult would it be to refresh locally or do I need to ship back to maker. Most were saying ship it back to them. Importing a non-EPA production approved engine into the US is difficult at the best of time.

    Then you have to consider that the most hp you can use in a seven is limited by its light weight and ability to put the power down. I have always thought that limit is around 330-350hp in practice.

    So knowing that, it was fairly easy to go the 2.5L duratec route. They have builds up to 290hp these days. I can get it refreshed locally in country. Its a simple robust package. Refresh life was the longest of the lot. It was far cheaper. Had less issues fitting into a Caterham package - just bolts in. It was a relatively simple decision to spec a hp that allowed a long refresh life but hit a target that was high. No brainer decision at the end of the day.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kitcat View Post
    Biggest changes over the current CSR seem to be the adjustable suspension with trick shocks, traction/launch control, throttle blipper, and the paddle shifter Sadev transmission. It looks like peak power wont be all that different? I thought your current CSR made in the 300 hp range also? Or is torque way up and the torque/hp curve fatter? I didn't see dry sump in your list of specs but am sure its there.
    More than that. The diff has a proper cage. Caterham has improved the chassis since mine. I will also go to the standard dash as that allows the customization with an integrated digital screen and switchgear that will improve operation. Peak power is a LOT more. Up from around 270hp to 330hp - about 25% more. Torque is substantially up - final figures to be determined with final tune and it is fat across the rev range. It is dry sumped - Titan or Tilton from memory.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kitcat View Post
    What do you think all of this will weigh (Around 1,400 lbs.?).
    With full tanks it should be in the 1350-1400lb territory, no driver.


    Quote Originally Posted by SK400 View Post
    why no full roll cage.. or is this coming soon?
    Have not got that far yet. Its yet to be assembled, put toegther and run. Lots of stuff left to happen. Thats last thing after the 3M film.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    I went through this as well, getting the MBE 9A4 working with the Cosworth YD8048 engine loom. I'm not sure if there may be pin assignment differences between the ECUs or the harnesses? Happy to help if I can.
    Thanks for the kind offer Sean. This a little different. We have a Caterham wiring loom to mate with a MBE 9A9 ECU (not the Caterham MBE 9A4). Its a full motorsport/production level ECU. It has working OBDII. So a lot more channels requiring additional wiring harness additions. The pin out/in are known so thats not a problem. We just need a robust wiring harness connector that will take all the additional pins needed for the extra wiring channels. ST Motorsport in the UK seems to have them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shortshift View Post
    This is super-interesting, Mike. I am harbouring some similar thoughts but whereas your build is intended to be an ultimate track car, I'm thinking about making the best road-car that I can - so similar approach but with different specs and priorities at component level.

    You mentioned that CC supplied the car as a glider but in the pictures of the car being built in the factory it seems to have a Sadev fitted and, I presume, at least a block in place as the primaries seem to be fixed to something and pointing in the right direction! Can you shed some light as to the extent that CC were able (happy?) to supply without the driveline mechanicals in place?

    James
    Its definitely a roller (or as you call it, glider) as you see it in the factory photos. No gearbox. No engine. Thats the only legal way it can be imported into the USA. I think it had a diff but that was replaced by the Tracsport one later. Things are just stuck together for shipping. Not sure how how its done as I never saw it that way. The original US import approach for Caterham was CKD kits. Then they moved to rollers without drive train. I believe thats how they supply to other countries as well. Caterham has to be happy with that approach as its their only way to sell into the US market. Importing complete cars brings with it the requirement for full DOT/NHSTA compliance (air bags, crash testing, etc) - so thats a non-starter. The kit/roller approach keeps it low volume and allows Caterham to still participate in the market.

    I am not sure Caterham will supply the CSR as a kit or roller in the UK? There is definitely resistance there that means its an off-catalog purchase for the USA. However, it is the only thing homologated in Switzerland or Australia as I understand it so they have to keep offering for those markets. Not sure I have the answers.



    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    Croc - Make sure you use a billet or forged crank in the 2.5L Duratec
    Forged. I learned from your expensive experiences. I also plan to keep the revs to 7500 or less. Don't need to go any higher in the rev range anyway - better to change to maxmize the torque curve.
    Mike
    2021 Caterham CSR "CatKong"
    2010 Caterham CSR with Cosworth 2.3 Duratec
    2018 Caterham 420R with 2L Duratec 210hp at Donington UK
    1975 BMW CSL Group 4 (restoration finished - track set up time)
    1977 Holden Torana "A9X" (awaiting restoration)
    1985 Holden Commodore SS Group A (suspension restoration)
    1985 Holden Commodore Group A (suspension set up)
    1982 Ferrari 400i (radiator replacement)
    1965 Ford Mustang Fastback "Holman Moody"
    1992 Ford Escort RS Cosworth WRC (dyno time)
    1990 Range Rover 2 door Classic


  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,261

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueBDA View Post
    HANS.
    My personal view is that the Simpson Hybrid harness is better than HANS in a seven and thats what I use. It does not need the Caterham belt mount locations modified plus it moves easier from car to car with less issues and it is less bulky for travel. Those considerations are important for me given I drive multiple cars and travel internationally.
    Mike
    2021 Caterham CSR "CatKong"
    2010 Caterham CSR with Cosworth 2.3 Duratec
    2018 Caterham 420R with 2L Duratec 210hp at Donington UK
    1975 BMW CSL Group 4 (restoration finished - track set up time)
    1977 Holden Torana "A9X" (awaiting restoration)
    1985 Holden Commodore SS Group A (suspension restoration)
    1985 Holden Commodore Group A (suspension set up)
    1982 Ferrari 400i (radiator replacement)
    1965 Ford Mustang Fastback "Holman Moody"
    1992 Ford Escort RS Cosworth WRC (dyno time)
    1990 Range Rover 2 door Classic


  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    3,798

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    For some reason, every time I try to remember your name for this Uber Caterham, I come up with"Croc-zilla."
    Kitcat:AKA, Sir Spinsalot
    '97 Caterham Super Sprint, 1700 Crossflow-sold
    '09 Birkin S3, Duratec-sold
    '03 Caterham Zetec track car
    '19 Honda Type R, sold
    '19 Miata Clubsport

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