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coffee break
07-21-2012, 04:07 PM
I am looking into replacing the Weber's with fuel injection for better emission control. I've found two packages with throttle bodies, injectors, ECU and other hardware. These are spec'ed for a 1700 crossflow.
2 questions...
1) Anyone have any experience with systems like this?
2) How much different is the 1600 from the 1700

Here are links I have found.

http://www.burtonpower.com/parts-by-fitment-type/parts-by-engine-ford/ford-cross-flow-kent/weber-alpha-throttle-body-management-kit-x-flow-1-7-webk99019.html (http://www.burtonpower.com/parts-by-fitment-type/parts-by-engine-ford/ford-cross-flow-kent/weber-alpha-throttle-body-management-kit-x-flow-1-7-webk99019.html)

http://www.omextechnology.co.uk/Omex%20General%20TB%20Kit%20v1_00.pdf (http://www.omextechnology.co.uk/Omex%20General%20TB%20Kit%20v1_00.pdf)

S1Steve
07-21-2012, 10:17 PM
Hi coffee break,

Most of the Superformance S1's came with WebCon throttle bodies. If I knew then

what I know now, I would have picked a more user- friendly package than the WebCon.

If the ECU is the same as mine, recalibration will require the eprom to be burned

with the new calibration. And that is very old school and a royal pain in the ass.

John K , who is on this site is, was the only person in North America that has ever done

a proper tune with the WebCon. Plus WebCon support for the system is nil over here.

But I have had zero problems after John gave it a good tune. Good luck, maybe John

will chime in with more details....

JohnCh
07-21-2012, 10:50 PM
I'd go this (http://www.emeraldm3d.com/ecu/generic-throttle-body-conversion-kits-for-4-cylinder-engines.html) route. Emerald has likely done the conversion on a crossflow so will likely have a starter map and may even be able to get you some specific parts like a pre-fabbed crank trigger wheel/crank pulley and crank sensor bracket. Definitely worth an email.

-John

coffee break
07-21-2012, 11:33 PM
John,
Thanks for the link. I have put in a request for more information. I have been looking around in my area and found a tuner with a chassis dyno. He has done some ECU mapping. He indicated that some pre-configuration is a big help in dialing things in.
Best regards,
Carl

scannon
07-21-2012, 11:37 PM
Carl,

"Done some ECU mapping" does not inspire confidence in this tuner. You should try to find someone who has a lot of experience with the specific ECU you chose. Otherwise you are paying him to earn while he learns, and possibly with disastrous consequences to your engine.

coffee break
07-22-2012, 12:18 AM
Good point.

JohnK
07-22-2012, 01:16 AM
I think you're making the right decision to go to EFI, but there are just a ton of watch-outs, and it can be a difficult thing to achieve.

My experience makes me echo Skip's advice. While there must be people out there who can do a good job, I haven't seen any myself, and I've seen an awful lot of unhappy customers and lousy running cars that were supposed to have been handled by a 'competent' tuner. What's really insidious is that it's difficult to impossible for the customer (you) to make an accurate assessment of good performance and a 'good' tune. I have two really dramatic and unbiased examples in my experience where the owner was convinced that his car was running perfectly well and found that the calibration they'd been driving was either ho-hum or poor. One was an older dirt track racer who'd not only had years of experience racing cars, but did the engine building himself. The other was S1Steve - I believe his comment, after I'd gotten him to try out what I knew from improving my testing protocol would be better for his car was, "John, I feel like I have an new car!"

Steve's right in that the WebCon system is really out of date re its hardware (having to burn the calibration into the chip requiring a separate piece of equipment and non-trivial electronics knowledge to do so). Looking back there were a number of problems with the software that cost me more than a bit of time. Again in agreement with Skip, since programming ecus involves software, all ecu systems have bugs - some much worse than others. You (the tuner) learn about how to deal with these things in the school of hard knocks, and the more time you've spent with one brand the less time you'll spend on peripheral issues and more time on getting the car to run well. Another issue is that starting with an engine you're unfamiliar with, unless and even if you have a really well developed testing protocol, you can spend an awful lot of time getting it right. Most shops can't afford that or don't have the nerve to charge a customer for the hours or time it takes to get it right so they pass off really poor work.

Re using the calibration from another engine setup that's "just like yours"; Edelbrock sells a well developed EFI bolt-on kit for several popular V8s (and happens to use the same ecu as the Webcon). A conversation with them made it clear that "identical" engines can be different enough to need significantly different calibrations, as well as that the more highly tuned the engine (cam, compression, intake/exhaust, ...) the more time it takes to dial it in.

Yes, it's a mine field, and all of this lead me to buy a Se7en that used an absolutely stock engine - I got the factory manual from Helms and duplicated the electronics EXACTLY as per the manufacturer. So I get great performance and don't haven't had to touch it.

One of the lessons I learned was about "drivability". If making lots of power comes at the cost of touchy throttle response, flat spots in the power curve, ..., the car becomes a lot of work to drive. It got to the point where people I gave calibrations to didn't care about how much power their engines were putting out or where their DynoJet printout had gotten to. Having response every time you touched the throttle, no backfiring at trailing throttle, really amazing early and mid-range torque (which is the whole reason for going to EFI as far as I'm concerned) make max HP academic. And one key answer a prospective tuner should be able to make clear is how he/?she tunes mid-range. If they can't give you a clear and enthusiastic answer to that question, look elsewhere. Johnty Lyons included in one of his posts on the usa@se7ens.net list written by Dave Andrews titled "Premature Injectulation" that you might find informative about the process of getting a good tune. (Re: {USA}RE:Tuning and ECUs, Dec 21, 2011 )


Whew! Hope this helps.

jlumba81
07-22-2012, 01:40 AM
Poked around and found this (http://www.mywintek.com/engineresults.htm) site. Might give you a few ideas. Also extrudabody (http://www.extrudabody.com/servlet/the-92/4-dsh-ITB-dsh-KIT-dsh-40-fdsh-45-fdsh-48mm-or-Twin-DCOE-fdsh-IDF-fdsh-IDA/Detail) itb kit w/ megasquirt (http://www.megasquirt.info/) engine management is another option.

JohnCh
07-22-2012, 09:55 AM
There are several things I like about Emerald. Support from the company and community is great. It's a very popular ECU for se7ens in the UK, so there are a lot of people on WSCC and BlatChat who have been there, done that and are always happy to help. Dave Walker, one of the owners, has an outstanding reputation in the UK as a tuner. He's written a great book on the subject, and the company has tuned a very large number of cars on their chassis dyno, so getting a starter map for a car with you specific configuration is generally not that hard. And lastly, in addition to the self mapping feature built into the unit, Chris Good put together a great little program (http://g2.nu/chris/misc/emerald-afr/) that enables you to get the fuel map dialed in very quickly (it also works with MegaSquirt).

The hardest parts of the map to set up are timing and the myriad of adjustments that impact drivablity at various temperatures. The nice thing about having a starter map from an engine that is a similar spec (asuming of course it was done by a talented tuner) is that those items are really close. Usually the fueling table will require a fair amount of fiddling, but that's pretty easy with the self mapping feature and Chris Good's software. Also, unlike DCOEs where you need to invest in a wide selection of expensive jets and emulsion tubes, making tweaks to the map yourself is free. If you really screwed things up, you just install an earlier version of your map and you are back where you started.

-John

The Stig
07-22-2012, 12:04 PM
Hi.

I fitted a Crossflow with an Omex setup. At that time here were no kits but the Omex ECU plus the Jenvey TBs are a lovely setup. The software is easy to use and the wiring loom comes complete with all the right pieces for connecting to rev count etc. check the temp sensor they recommend though as that is critical and may mean drilling the block.

For a 1600 or 1700 you wont need more than the 40's. You also won't see a great increase in power if anything but significant improvements in smoothness and tractability if mapped correctly. As well as emissions providing the engine is in good condition.

Of course you also lose the distributor for the coil pack which is an off the shelf piece shield it fail and you will need a new fuel pump, regulator and return fuel pipe.

Don't forget if you order from the UK you won't pay the VAT!

Go for it!

coffee break
07-22-2012, 03:00 PM
Y'all are giving me great feedback!
The car is new to me, so I should do a compression check. I think the motor is in good shape and the ODO has less than 6000 miles, so I'm looking for some good numbers psi wise. What should I be looking for?

I'm not sure the distributor can be completely removed, doesn't it also drive the oil pump?

Thanks,
Carl

jlumba81
07-22-2012, 05:45 PM
Not sure about what a good crossflow tests at. but the reading should be equal across all cylinders.

bball7754
07-26-2012, 09:48 AM
Here is thread on BlatChat about injecting a Crossflow:

http://www.blatchat.com/t.asp?id=216318&pn=1&ps=15

I know Dave (he occassionally is in St. Louis for work), and if you're interested could ask him for more details on what he's planning on using.

Dave actually dragged a spare distributor across the pond that I used in my Crossflow for about 4 months. Good guy.

Steve

coffee break
07-26-2012, 04:54 PM
Thanks,
Good data on that link. I have also gotten info on trigger wheels and sensors from WEBCON
http://www.webcon.co.uk/shop/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=143&cat=Ford (http://www.webcon.co.uk/shop/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=143&cat=Ford)
It looks to solve the problem of mounting the trigger wheel and sensor.