car comparisons

[rv-4mike]

I just found this forum and spent the last couple hours looking around.



In the market for my next project car and looking for some input. I'm looking at a couple of options:



1) My first choice is the Ariel Atom, but this car is really out of my price range. Beautiful car with awesome performance. A modern day incarnation of the Seven. Too bad they are so pricey.



2) A Factory Five Cobra Replica. More affordable and also beautiful cars. I have a friend that has one. Not the most comfortable car around. Rides like a truck. Everybody and his brother has one.



3) WCM Ultralight. Quirky looks but I think I like it. Havent seen one in person though. Engineering looks almost comparable to the Atom for considerably less $, but still pricey.



4) Stalker V6. From what I can tell, engineering looks a little more simplistic than the WCM, but the car performance looks pretty good. I like the look though the wheelbase appears to be a little longer than a typical Seven replica (or maybe just the pictures I've seen). Looks like good bang for the buck.



Can anyone here give me some input here on the Seven clones? How do they compare to one another? How do they compare performance wise to a Cobra replica?



Any feedback would be appreciated on the cars or on the companies that produce them. This seems to be a forum for all Seven's and I dont want to be responsible for pitting one against the other so feel free to PM me if you prefer.



Thanks.

[Boxologist]

i am offering advice to a coworker of mine to to a FF build since he is too big to fit in a 7. i believe that FF has updated their unit to accept the previous mustang. if its possible to slip an SVT supercharged Cobra drivetrain in there, it should have the performance to back up the looks.

[locostv8]

Much depends on your budget, skill level, timeframe, wow level, etc...



I'm 6'5" 230lb and am building a Locost with a 392(351) and intend to have well less than the kit cost in the whole car. The resulting car will have 500+hp 4wdb, ABS, IRS, PS, crusie, etc and weigh about 1400lb.



You might do some lurking on http://locostusa.com/forums/index.php.



http://wrangler.rutgers.edu/gallery/d/36857-5/First+Run+Lotus7+022.jpg

1250lb LC7 with 302 & T5<edited><editID>locostv8</editID><editDate>2006-12-20 01:08:33</editDate></edited>

[Al Navarro]

Mike-



Welcome to the forum. While I think many of us folks here have a bias toward the last 2 cars on your short list, a few have actually run their LSiS (Lotus Seven inspired Sportscars) alongside Cobras in the Run and Gun competition. They'll find this thread and chime in soon enough, I'm sure.



-Al

[powderbrake]

rv-4Mike:

I went through the same series of questions myself when I decided to build a kit car. I agree there are lots of cobras out there. It is a great car, but in an entirely different category. It's a big honkin V8 and has the weight and size that goes with that.



Since you are looking at the Ariel, WCM and Stalker, it sounds like you are looking for something smaller and more nimble. That is the esssence of a LSiS ( Lotus Seven inspired Sportscar) I have an Ultralite, and have run against Cobras on the track, and can stay with or beat many Cobras in the twisties. When you hit the straight however, the horsepower and aerodynamics of the Cobra give them the advantage.



I have seen a lot of Ultralites and Stalkers beat Cobras in the 1/4 mile at Run N Gun. My Ultralite with street tires turns a 12.6 second quarter ( when I do it right) and that's faster than a lot of Cobras and my 1998 Corvette. It's also slower than some other Ultralites, and some of the Supercharged Stalkers.



Basically a LSiS vehicle is a race car in disguise, and when you put an engine in the 200+ hp range in it, it becomes a giant killer. Some of the cars on this forum with v8's in them must be mind boggling.



You also listed them in approximate order of cost. The Ariel is in the statosphere, the Ultralight and the Stalker are much more reasonable. The Locost route is probably the lowest cost approach, but probably requires the most work and know-how.



You didn't mention the Caterham and Birkin, but they are available. They are the closest to the Lotus in appearance and construction, and the Caterham has the same DNA as the Lotus 7. The Caterham is also pricey. You can buy a finished Ultralite for less than a Caterham kit less drivetrain. The other options include the bike engined cars.



I suggest you spend some time looking at the various cars . SIT in them!!!! How does it feel? There is a big difference in room in some of the cars. My Ultralite and the Stalker are 4 to 6 inches wider than a Standard Lotus, Caterham or Birkin. Contact the various owners here on the forum. Look at their cars. Ask them about the construction process/problems. Look at how the car is constructed, how the parts fit, how the engine, transmission, differential is mounted. How big is the gas tank? Look at the shocks, how the springs are adjusted. Look at the upholstery, the dash, the instruments.



I also suggest you ask yourself the following:

What do I want to do with the car? Cruise? travel? autocross? race? show car?

Do I want to build or buy a car?

How much work do I want to put into building the car?

How much do I enjoy tinkering with the car after it's done?

Is it reliable?

Where do I get spare parts for the car?

What do I do if it rains?



The only car I can tell you a lot about is the Ultralite, and will do so if you give me a call. E mail me at geddens at charter dot net, I'll give you my phone number.



Let us know where you live. The guys on the Forum can hook you up with Se7en owners near you and you can evaluate the cars. I will check to see if I can find an Ultralite near you. The other places to see se7ens are the Kit Car show in Carlisle PA ( held in the fall) and there will be 77 se7ens at Tail of The Dragon on 7/7/07.



>7's at ToTD (http://www.usa7s.com/forum/eventregistration/index.aspx)



Also click on the LINKS just below the pictures of the cars at the top of the page, for links to the manufactures web sites.



The Se7en is a terriffic choice, it is a fun car, and can fulfill all your dreams.

[slngsht]

As others have said, Cobras and 7s are both tons of fun - in different ways.



I drive by an exotic car place on the way to work, and they have 2 cobras sitting there. They are - beautiful. I wouldn't mind having one at all.



You should also look in the used market. 20K will buy you a decent cobra or seven.

[rv-4mike]

Guys,



Thanks for the input to date. A little further information about me. I'm just finishing construction of a home built airplane (an RV-4, duh) and looking for my next tinkering project. My last project car has been a few years back. Was a Datsun 260Z with Chevy 383 power. So I am capable of building a car.



I have a good friend who just finished an FFR Cobra. A pure donor build with stock 5.0 EFI and T5 tranny. I love the look of the car. But seating is very uncomfortable on both sides due to the cant of the seats and width of the trans tunnel. Steering and brakes are very heavy and rides like a buckboard. I'm still tempted based on the looks and performance, but less than enthused with the heavy steering, etc... My daily driver is a 91 Toyota MR2 turbo which is the funnest car I've ever owned. After driving the MR2 for 15 years I'm pretty sold on the small light car concept (not that the MR2 is all that light, it just feels light if you know what I mean). Finally, some of the engineering on the FFR strikes me as a little crude or compromised in order to work with the donor Mustang parts.



I didnt seriously consider a Caterham for the money I could get the Atom and that would be no contest. Dont know about the Birkin. I've seen a couple but hadnt really thought much about them.



I've also looked at the Locost route. Maybe somewhere in the distant future, but at this point its more work than I want to get into. Not that I couldnt do it, just not the right project at the moment.



The Stalker looks good and performance looks good as well. I'm having a hard time with the idea of a small sports car that uses S10 donor parts. Seems to me to be pretty crude, but if it works who am I to argue? Due to the cost and claimed performance, I havent ruled this out as a contender. But I'd like to see one in person.



The Ultralight is the car that is really appealing to me at the moment. Primarily because it strikes me as being closest to the Atom in concept, engineering, and execution. I'd love to see (and take a ride) in one if there is one somewhere in my part of the world.



Call it a personality quirk, but I dont like to do the same thing as everyone else. That's part of the problem for me with the Cobra, everyone has one. I've been going to the Knotts kit car show the past couple of years. Last year there were about 80 Cobras, about 4 Porsche Spyder replicas, 2 LSIS. If I do decide on a Cobra it will probably be Chevy powered (my buddy wont even speak to me if I do that). My airplane that I am just completing has a Mazda rotary engine in it.



I guess, bottom line is I do need to get a close look at a couple of the LSIS, try them on for size, and try to snivvel a ride or even drive one or two. Only time I've ever been in one was at a car show where Superformance had one they were trying to sell. But couldnt drive it. In hindsight should have bought it (I later heard that they practically gave it away because they couldnt sell it - everyone wanted their Cobra kit).



I do have a friend of a friend who has a pretty serious Caterham that he auto crosses. Maybe I can get a ride with him. But as you pointed out, the Ultralight is wider (and presumably more comfortable) than a Caterham so I guess that wouldnt be all that helpful.



Oh, uses. I'm looking for a car to cruise the backroads primarily. Something to replace my motorcycle (I'm getting to old for that). My guess is that in any street based comparison the smaller lighter cars like the Ultralight and Atom would eat a Cobra for lunch unless the Cobra was pretty seriously built. In fact probably on most race courses as well, unless the course was big with lots of straights like Willow Springs. I doubt I'd race it - thats not my thing, though I might be tempted once I own a car that is capable. And I'm located in San Diego, Ca.



Thanks for the offer to contact you directly. I'll try to do that tonight. I did read the article about your car that is linked from the WCM website, but I would like to know more.

[rv-4mike]

I should have mentioned. I'm also partnered on a flying airplane, so I can pretty easily get around the southern cal, arizona area to get a look at a car if need be. If it's the right car it would be worth the trip. May even be willing to trade an airplane ride for a ride in the car. My flying airplane is an Rv-6A. The RV series are pretty comparable to the LSIS concept - 2 seats, small light, great handling, etc...

[slomove]

There are a bunch of Se7eners in SoCal (including myself in Pasadena with a Birkin) but just so in San Diego. Post on www.californiacaterhamclub.com (it is marque-inclusive, not just Caterham) and you will get lots of opportunity to sit and drive in various Se7ens (mostly Caterham, Birkin and Locost, probably no local S2k or Stalker).



Gert<edited><editID>slomove</editID><editDate>2006-12-21 02:19:59</editDate></edited>

[rv-4mike]

Another option to consider. I just was looking at the Deman 7. Does anybody have any info or input? The website is really clunky and doesnt provide a lot of information about what's involved in building the car, what components are used, etc... I want to know more. It looks like some pretty good workmanship from what I can see on the website. And looks like pretty good bang for the buck as well.



Also, anyone here have experience with the bike powered variants? The Hayabusa certainly is a powerful bike engine. Not sure how practical it would be as a street driven car, but sure would be different! I think I like it. Inputs please! http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif

[slngsht]

Mike, for questions on Deman, drop a line to Dino at grkmf3@comcast.net



As for a bike engined car (BEC), please see >this (http://www.usa7s.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=362). There is no shortage of opinions http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/smile5.gif

[Deman USA]

Hello everyone. My name is Dino, my friend Paul and I are the North American dealers for the Deman 7's. Like slomove posted, the website is kind of clunky, and is brief. We just got in with Daniel Mann, the founder and builder of Deman-Motorsport, and will be recreating the site. As far as the workmanship, he is unbelievable at what he does. You should just take a look at his A-arms that he creates and how incredible the are. We are actually introducing a new line of 7's that are a wide-body version, and will have a Nissan powerplant. The advantage of the Nissan powerplant over the bussa, is more hp along with alot, and i mean alot more torque. The car looks amazing, and has alot of new features. If your in the market for a new 7, and dont want to spend the big bucks on a Caterham or a Birkin, then just give me a call at (224)-612-1320 or email me at grkmf3@comcast.net and i will give you specs and alot more info on the Deman SR27's.

Thanks agian, and hope to see and meet all of you at the Tail of the Dragon where you will be able to see a very powerful, fun, and reasonably priced work of art in action.

Happy Holidays, Dino

[rv-4mike]

Dino,

Sent you an email for more info.



Can you post a little more detail on the Nissan powered variant and reasons for choosing that engine? Which Nissan? Power?



I really like the WCM at this point, at least in part for the S2000 power. I'd like to get big HP without having to go to extreme mods, and without having to go to more than 4 cylinders. My benchmark is the 300HP Ecotec powered Ariel Atom. My preference in power would be Toyota or Honda based on my experience with those makes. Although I think a tricked out Mazda rotary would be pretty cool in one of these cars also! http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif

[PAUL@DEMAN]

Hello everyone. This is Dino's partner Paul. To answer rv-4mike's question as to which Nissan powerplant we will be using, it will be the SR20DET. If you are not familiar with these engines they are 2.0L 16 valve turbocharged engines that rev to 7,500 and make over well over 200hp stock. We will be selling built versions with over 300rwhp. It all depends on what the customer wants. The cars will be called the SR27 (SR20DET+SUPER 7=SR27). These cars are still being developed right now. We hope to have complete cars in early February. We feel that this powerplant will be the perfect motor for these cars. They produce a lot of power and have the great engineering and reliability of Nissan motors. There is not any information about these cars on the website because they are still being developed but you can give either Dino or I a call at (312)804-3839.<edited><editID>PAUL@DEMAN</editID><editDate>2006-12-22 12:36:44</editDate></edited>

[rv-4mike]

What Nissan car does that motor come from?

[Deman USA]

The SR20DET motor comes from the very well-known Nissan Silvia. If you know what the Silvia is, and is pushed to do, then think of what the 7 can do with this bad boy in it.

[BusaLoco]

Hi Mike,

I own, and have built (well assembled) a Busa Powered Deman SR7.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;See my ride pics http://www.usa7s.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=358 .

My Deman kit was complete, on time and a real good bang for my buck. ... No complaints and Daniel Mann is very accomodating with constructo-newbie questions!

To check out Dan's site ... (I think it works quite well)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;http://www.deman-motorsport.com/ .

The car's focus leans more to track use than a road car and so some of the creature comforts (a la Caterham) don't exist ...ie fiberglass seats not leather, etc.

The degree of finish is left in your hands but I have to admit that it has been a real pleasure to add the finishing details the way that we like them.

Hope this helps!

BusaLoco<edited><editID>BusaLoco</editID><editDate>2006-12-23 10:25:51</editDate></edited>

[Deman USA]

We will have options on our Deman SR27 just as the Caterhams do. And dont be suprised to see Deman Motorsport on the Caterham, Ariel level pretty soon.

http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/coolgleamA.gif

[slngsht]

We will have options on our Deman SR27 just as the Caterhams do. And dont be suprised to see Deman Motorsport on the Caterham, Ariel level pretty soon.

http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/coolgleamA.gif



The more the merrier

[rv-4mike]

I wasnt familiar with the SR20DET so did a little web surfing to find out more. Looks good, but as far as I can tell, not offered in any cars sold in the US. If thats wrong please correct me. If thats true, I cant speak for others but for me that would be a problem. I dont want to be stuck with an unsupported orphan.

[Deman USA]

The SR20DET is here in America under the Nissan 240SX model. It was in the Nissan Sentra FWD model also in the early 90's. Finding parts and having people work on them is no problem what so ever. You will be able to find the same amount of parts as you would for any Honda motor. You can even take it to your nearest Nissan dealer and have them work on the car. I will be sending you pictures of the build process rv-4mike, later on today, and will be more than happy to send pictures upon request to anybody else that is interested.

[rv-4mike]

Dino,



Thanks. Looking forward to getting those build pictures. I was on your site again this morning for a bit. I know I saw reference previously to what you use for donor parts (uprights/spindles, brakes, diff, etc...) but for the life of me I couldnt find it this morning.



I'll do a little more looking and web surfing for more info on the Nissan engine.



Now I have a new quandry. Car engine or bike engine? Cant get over how cool that car sounds in the video clip on your website! Decisions...

[Deman USA]

rv-4mike,



To answer your question about which path to take, if your looking to have a 7 that you can drive on the street, enjoy on the weekends, or have fun at the track, the Nissan is the way to go. Now if your looking to do just tracking, then the busa is for you. Let me know when you recive the pictures later on tonight.



Thanks, Dino

[BusaLoco]

What's wrong with a Busa on the streets? http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif

[scannon]

I will be sending you pictures of the build process rv-4mike, later on today, and will be more than happy to send pictures upon request to anybody else that is interested.





I'd like to see those too, can you post a link to them?



Thanks,



Skip

[slngsht]

What's wrong with a Busa on the streets? http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif



<strong>Busa</strong>Loco and Locost<strong>V8</strong> may not see eye to eye on this issue http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrinjester.gif

[Deman USA]

There is nothing wrong with the busa motor on the street, except of the major lose of torque compared to the Nissan motor, and a much louder exhaust. When your going from street light to street light, you'll need torque. When your going on a a track, and around corners, you wont need as much torque since your revving so high.

If there are anymore questions, feel free to ask me.



Thanks, Dino

[locostv8]

What's wrong with a Busa on the streets? http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif



<strong>Busa</strong>Loco and Locost<strong>V8</strong> may not see eye to eye on this issue http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrinjester.gif



<font size="1">torque</font>

<font color=red><font size="6">COST</font></font><edited><editID>locostv8</editID><editDate>2006-12-23 16:57:07</editDate></edited>

[BusaLoco]

My Deman SR7 weighs 985 lbs and with the 180 HP busa I have found that I've got all the torque I need. In any event, in my experience I seem to get from light to light OK.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Let's just see now, yes that's right ...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0 - 60 in 3.48 secs.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Yup, that should get me from light to light just fine, thank you very much!



http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/20061223_183046_Busa_in_Garage.jpg<edited><editID>BusaLoco</editID><editDate>2006-12-23 18:39:12</editDate></edited>

[PAUL@DEMAN]

Here are some teasers of the SR27 in the build process.



http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/20061223_190904_Deman_USA_011_s.JPG

http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/20061223_191000_Deman_USA_017_s.JPG

http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/20061223_191051_Deman_USA_020_s.JPG

http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/20061223_191209_Deman_USA_021_s.JPG

http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/20061223_191336_Deman_USA_010_s.JPG

[scannon]

Is that a Miata differential, half shafts and rear brakes in there? Any other Miata parts used?



Skip

[BusaLoco]

I've seen that chassis somewhere before.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;hmmmm.

[PAUL@DEMAN]

Yes that is a miata rear end. Deman is switching over to miata parts primarily because they are lighter and are easily available. British American Motorsport, or B.A.M. for short, are the ones who are developing and building these SR27's along with Deman. These pictures are courtesy of Seth Patterson, one of the onwers of B.A.M., who is building these cars. B.A.M. has been restoring and building rare classics and exotics such as Ferrari and Porsche for over 14 years. Combinding the talent behind Deman and B.A.M. will make the SR27 something truely amazing.

[BusaLoco]

This is the "TBird" diffs that Daniel Mann at Deman used on his amazing Turbo Busa SR7.



As you can see the Diff is a bit of overkill even for the mighty Turbo Busa.



[/IMG]http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/20061223_221730_Web_Busa_picks_.jpg<edited><editID>BusaLoco</editID><editDate>2006-12-24 06:40:53</editDate></edited>

[WestTexasS2K]

Welcome RV-4 Mike. I was in similiar mode when I started looking at the 7. I was from a hotrodding background as well. I was a little unsure of the 7 at first. I had just finished a 5 year build of a 77 280z with a big block chevy with six speed and the works. (It is on the hybridz.org site under the photo gallery it is orange and is the most viewed car on the site for the last two years). Anyway I had seen the Ultralite in a magazine and was passing by Lancaster Tx and decided to check them out. I stopped in the shop and talked to Brian Anderson the owner. We visited for a few hours as he was finishing some work on a car. He asked if I would like a test ride? I jumped at the chance and have never been the same. It was one of the fastest cars I have been in, And I have been in some pretty quick cars.



The Texas sevens fest was the next day and they invited me out to see all the cars. Luckily I was able to get a ride in the Ultralite on the track. I was impressed beyond belief what that car was capable of. So soon as I got home I put the Z up for sell to buy an Ultralite kit. I don't regret the decision for a second. The Ultralite kit comes alot more complete than the Stalker which by the way is a very fast in the supercharged version. I completed my kit in about 150 hours. I had talked to Dennis Brunton at R&G this year he said their car took about 400 hrs to finish. Stalker kit requires several trips tp the salvage yard to source parts then you have to clean, paint, rebuild some of the pieces you get. The reliability of the Honda engine in the Ultralite cant be touched IMHO. I have put 8K miles on the car this year with over 2k miles of track time. The only thing I have had to do with the engine is change the oil. It still has the same plugs it came with from the junk yard.



The Birkin and Catherham are nice cars but are considerably narrower than the Ultralite or Stalker.

The Ztec powered cars run about the same money and you end up with about 70 horses less than the Ultralite or Super Stalker. The finish on any of the cars can be as plush or as spares as your heart desires.



The Ultralite has a little diffrent styling than the other 7s. It has a shorter nose and has a bit of a wedge shape to it and the cowl bumps on the hood.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Others have the longer nose and have a little less shape to it. I prefered the looks of the Ultralite more than the others, but to a purist they are a bigger departure from the original.



I do alot of DE weekends and it is consistantly one of the fastest cars on the track with 220 wear street tires running with cars with full slicks and you still pass them on a regular basis. Best of all when you come of the track just fill it up with gas check tire pressure and go do it again while everyone else does repairs. I won all three events at Run and Gun this year in prepared class and was 2 seconds faster than the SuperStalker in my class. I also ran the Cannonball Runs 1 Lap of America and placed 31st out of 88 cars and I was the cheapest car in the field by a 30K dollars.



Parts for the U.S built cars seem to be more readily available than the Euro built cars.



There are several Ultralite in CA. Brian at World Class should be able to give you a few names.



I know my comments are biased to the Ultralite because I have one and love it. I have seen Birkins, Catherham, Locost, Stalkers all in person and feel I still got the right car for me. I liked the experience so much I am building another one.

[rv-4mike]

Thanks for the input WestTexas. I'm decided. My deposit will go out to Brian tomorrow.



I agree with you on the looks. Its what drew me to the Ultralight in the first place. I prefer the look to the original 7. I just hope it looks as good in person.

[Deman USA]

rv-4mike, reading what you write, it sounds like you want a looker, and a performer. You'll be very impressed with the SR27. If you could hold off with your impulse to pick-up an Ultralite for a couple of weeks, you will be able to compare the Ultralite to the all new High-Performer Deman SR27. Trust me, you'll be happy.

Dino,Deman USA

[rv-4mike]

Dino,



You are right in your description of what I want. The Ultralite really was my first choice going in, though I admit I really like what I see of your cars on your website. But...



I've been checking out the Ultralite for a couple of years. Not only does it get my vote for looks and engineering, but it has an established track record.



I like the engine choice. I like Hondas.



Under other circumstances I'd wait, but WCM is offering the Ultralight in kit form until 1 Jan. Not clear when/if the opportunity would come up again to get a kit. I dont want to miss this opportunity.



Best of luck to you with the SR27.