What Seven for Street, AutoX & Track days?

[Evan]

Hello Everybody,

I am new in the forum and need some advice on whether to get either a Lotus Seven or Caterham for AutoX & Track days but also be street legal (no registration headaches and yes, I will drive the darn thing on the street) and insurable (tell me which company you use [my insurance company wont insure a Caterham]).

FWIW, I have been doing motorsports for 20+ years but I'm a total newbie on what to look for on Seven's and it's clones. These cars have always been extremely interesting to me and I think the time is right to get one before I get too old :)

Thanks in advance for all the input.

[yellowss7]

Welcome to the group!

Disclaimer first, I own a Caterham.

Question, when you say either a Lotus 7 or a Caterham, have you eliminated all the other LSIS??

If you are just looking for a 7 type vehicle then you have a wide range of choices and opinions to sort out.

If you're Autoxing, I can tell you that SCCA regs put All Caterhams and all other clones into D Modified or E Modified classes depending on engine size. D =2.0L and under and
E= over 2.0 liter.

An original Lotus 7 MAY qualify for one of the stock classes but you have to read the regs very carefully to determine which ones do. It too is dependent on engine displacement.

I'll let those that track their cars explain what's needed there, but remember that an original 7 will be over 30-40 years old.

For the street, any will do, but titleling and inspecting will vary greatly from state to state.

I suggest you find examples of each type you are considering to sit in, ride in or test drive, before you put your money down. Each have their own strong points and weak points.

As for Caterhams, I've had mine for 9 years now, and love it. It has the benefit of new rustfree steel, new running gear, and since I assembled it, I have a better idea of how to work on it.

Best of luck.

Tom

[WestTexasS2K]

Any will fit your needs and do quite well in all endevours. It is all going to boil down to personal taste really. There are some models that have more power than others, but all are very fun to drive. This dicussion has been kicked around many times before so you might try a search and see if you can find more answers.

Everyone tends to be a little biased towards the mark they own. Good and bad can be seen in all of them.

[Evan]

Thanks for the response.

Guy's, Who insures your cars and what restrictions are put on them?

My desire to go Lotus or Caterham may be un/misinformed; but the reasons are easy registration on the old Lotus Sevens, parts availability/interchangeability (with Caterham), resale, & insurability (questionable on caterham). If I was sure that I'd love this type of car then I'd probably lean towards the S2K engined clones and put up with the aggravating registration/title process :)

I think all the Seven's are either DM or EM depending on engine size and if they are NA or not so I plan on running DM on a regional level since I dont have the skill, budget nor the patience to constantly tune :o

[yellowss7]

Evan, I've insured my Caterham with JC Taylor here in Pa. Agreed value, unlimited mileage.

Pretty simple process, to get it done. They've cashed my check every year for the last 9 years.

Registration was pretty painless too. Registered in Pa. as A Special Constructed Vehicle.

Had to have it insured, inspected, and jump thru the paperwork hoops. But went thru on the first attempt. Annual inspections have been painless as well.

Tom

[slngsht]

Evan, where are you located? The place to start is to hitch a new ride / see these things first hand.

If you are in the mid-Atlantic / North East, a bunch of us will be at Carlisle in two weeks.

Off the top of my head, I think there will at least be a couple of Caterham, a Birkin, an Ultralite, a Stalker and a Locost in attendance.

[Mondo]

I think any 7 can be insured.... once it's registered. You can always be patient and see if one comes up in your state to avoid hassle. Or if you can find someone in you area that has gone thru it that will be a big help.

There have been some great cars up for sale lately at good prices.

Personnaly, I think Stalkers & S2Ks are a little more hard core but parts/repairs are cheaper and easier to get. They're also a little bigger and that's relative. Caterhams and Birkins are the classics with more creature comforts (depending on what the owner wants) and hold their value; though more expensive up front. Westfields look good too, and not so expensive.

These cars are really basic and you can pretty much make any of them fit your needs.

[scannon]

Evan,

Registration difficulty depends on your state regulations. Some are very easy, some are next to impossible. Getting a car that is already registered and titled helps a lot.

My Caterham is insured with Hagerty with a set value and unlimited miles.

Welcome aboard, you won't regret owning a Se7en of any type.

Skip

[Evan]

Thanks for the responses.

Everybody, Does your company allow you to drive your car as a regular/everyday car?

I'd love to drive this cars on an everyday basis to learn more about it which is the reason for the insurance questions. One of my cars has an Agreed value insurance with a 2500 mile cap annually but with a restriction not to be used as a regular car (American Collectors Insurance). I have owned it since new and is being restored so it's not a problem.

Thanks for the heads-up on Carlisle. I have seen Sevens since the late 70's and have had awesome rides in them; thus my interest.
My ambivalence is about the ownership experience since I'm not quite sure if the car or I would live up to expectations :)
I have places in MN & FL but all the vehicles are currently registered in MN; should be back in MN by the 17th of May.

[drew...]

Evan,
I have a Caterham and am located 30 minutes southwest of Minneapolis. I am insured through Met at an agreed value with no restrictions to mileage etc.
I built mine and had no issues with registration / licensing. Another USA7's member is going through the license process this week in Minnesota - he purchased his complete and should be able to shed some light on his experience shortly.

[Evan]

Evan,
I have a Caterham and am located 30 minutes southwest of Minneapolis. I am insured through Met at an agreed value with no restrictions to mileage etc.
I built mine and had no issues with registration / licensing. Another USA7's member is going through the license process this week in Minnesota - he purchased his complete and should be able to shed some light on his experience shortly.

Drew,

That's great to hear.

There are 2 guys who run with Minnesota Autosports Club and Corvettes of Minnesota but they have an older Birkin and Caterham.
Do you ever run with the guys with SCCA or MAC?

[drew...]

I've done a few BIR Performance track days - always fun - but I haven't run with any of the groups mentioned

[Hank]

I have not found an insurer that will give me basic coverage as well as coverage for timed events or racing of any kind for my Se7en. The path is leading towards a separate policy for track days and the primary coverage for street use.

[Evan]

I have not found an insurer that will give me basic coverage as well as coverage for timed events or racing of any kind for my Se7en. The path is leading towards a separate policy for track days and the primary coverage for street use.


Thanks for the replies.

I'm sorry for not being clear on my insurance inquiries. I did not want coverage for timed or racing events since that would be incredibly expensive; besides, we never really want anybody to know what we really do with our cars :)

The kind of insurance I am looking for is an agreed value policy but without the restriction of being unable to drive it regularly (daily driver) and as little mileage restriction as possible.

[Croc]

Insurance is a really a state based issue. For example I have State Farm under a regular daily driver policy but to get it took 3 months of negotiation/inspection with the NJ underwriters to allow it even though I know for a fact they insure Sevens in NY and PA. I know Safeco also will insure a Seven as a daily driver in NY and PA but not in NJ. I saw above Drew had Met but they would not touch me in NJ. I could have used Chubb to insure my Seven as a regular driver under their Masterpiece policy but in the end I went with State Farm. These are the only companies I found who were willing to insure a Seven as a regular driver in some states (but not all states). It really does help to find a friendly agent/broker willing to work with you to sort it out.

[Evan]

Croc, I understand what you mean. SF would insure a Lotus but not a Caterham in MN even with my agent lobbying for about a week.
There also might be a regional policy by the insurance companies so it could vary from one region to another.

[Davemk1]

I have a Birkin that I autocross and use on the street. I've made a rack that plugs into the rear of the car that carries the 13" slicks and I put the jack and tool box in the passenger footwell and I'm off to the races.

I also drive it on the street a good bit just to run errands or for fun. I work from home so I have no commute so that doesn't figure in.

I insure mine through Hagerty and feel they give good service for a fair price. I have agreed upon value and and full replacement cost. They said it was cool to run errands but they wanted to be sure that it was not my daily driver and that I didn't commute in it. They wanted proof of another car that I'd use to get to work. They didn't care how many miles I drove only that I had another "real" car.

It's a very good autocross car and can be set up very well. The large amount of caster built into the front suspension is especially good so that I can run very little static camber (great for braking) but when turning you get very good dynamic camber. With the right air pressure for the given course and surface I usually have tire temps within 2 degrees across the width of the tire.

I've never driven another Seven and maybe they are all this good. I don't know. But I can say that the Birkin is a very good choice to consider.

dave

[Croc]

Its not so much regional but state-based. Unlike banks which are regulated federally, insurance co.s are regulated by the states. So to sell insurance they have to do rate filings with each state. It will come down to the nature of the premium rate filing.

If you exhaust all other options then Chubb will be your best bet since they are set up in all states to insure specialist cars as daily drivers through their Masterpiece policy (as opposed to the regular auto policy). However, you will find it an expensive option...

[Evan]

Thanks for everybodys input. Your experience is invaluable to me.

I have no knowledge on the Birkin marque other than it being one of the many Seven clone manufacturers. The perspective of an extremely happy customer gives me the confidence to consider it especially knowing that you seem to like the same things I plan to do with the car.

Dave, do you have a dedion, IRS or solid axle rear end? Are these choices even available for the Birkin?

[Davemk1]

Thanks for everybodys input. Your experience is invaluable to me.

I have no knowledge on the Birkin marque other than it being one of the many Seven clone manufacturers. The perspective of an extremely happy customer gives me the confidence to consider it especially knowing that you seem to like the same things I plan to do with the car.

Dave, do you have a dedion, IRS or solid axle rear end? Are these choices even available for the Birkin?

My Birkin is a 1999 and it's a live axle model. I'm not sure but I think all new ones might have an IRS. You might take a look at Dick Brink's site to get more modern spec's.

www.texasmotorworks7.com

It's a seriously fun car.

dave

[Croc]

I drove the grey IRS Birkin listed on Dick Brinks' website and was very impressed by the IRS suspension that Birkin have developed. It is much more composed on rough surfaces than the live axle - less thrown off line when hitting bumps mid corner. I thought it felt better than the Caterham de dion. It would be interesting to compare it to the Caterham IRS which is still pretty rare.

[Evan]

Thanks for the responses.

Croc, do you ever sleep? :)

Just gotta find the right car at the right price for an old guy who still likes to drive like a little kid on the track.

I corresponded with Dick via email a few times but my schedule is pretty tight at the moment but I'll try to visit his shop before buying.
There is also a car in San Diego that's advertised here and I like it a lot but is very intimidating mechanically for someone like me who hasn't touched a carburetor in about 30years much less 2 of them; if only it had a duratec or ztec :)
The ULTRA 7 on the For Sale section seems like an awesome car built in a diligent manner but appears to be a lot bulkier than a Seven; any thoughts?

I am in northern FL right now and will be going down to Miami-Ft. Lauderdale this coming Tuesday after fishing this weekend and I see that there is a Birkin and a S4 Seven at Wirewheel in Vero Beach.
The S4 styling seems kinda pre-pubescent but have never seen one in person so I'd like to check it out.

Has anybody had any experiences in dealing with wire wheel classic sportscars?

[Croc]

LOL...I just do not need any beauty sleep! :p

The S4 is an acquired taste...not everyone fits with the styling although the car is still an accomplished performer once you get past the looks. Not sure what you mean by "pre-pubescent" in terms of a car - my mind is boggling at the idea :eek:

The Birkin S3 at Wirewheel has been up for sale since at least July last year as that was when I first saw it advertised as I was shopping around at that time. I am a little surprised it has not sold already but I suspect the price is too high. I have not dealt with Wirewheel personally.

Cheers
mike

[Evan]

It means......before puberty.
The styling of the car seems like it has not reached maturation. The styling seems to remind me of some girls in early high school; they are pretty and smart but too skinny, lanky, and somewhat clumsy but deep inside, you knew they were going to be waaaaaaaaay hot as time went on and you were going to regret not giving them a shot :) The S4 reminds me of that, at least in pictures so I'd like to see it.

The Birkin did seem expensive but might be worth exploring.

[Mondo]

Of course I have a bit of bias but most here agree that they all give you the 7 experience.
About the S2K, I doubt you'll find one any nicer than Chad's. Especially if you want to track it (and show it off!).
Our cars look (and are) bigger, especially side by side. But by themselves their absolutely tiny compared to anything else on the road. The engine is slightly offset to the passenger's side. Besides being about 4 inches wider than a normal 7, this allows a wide drivers seat while you'll have to be less than a 36 inch waist to fit comfortably in the passenger side. I think the whole drivers side compartment area is bigger than most, including the pedal box. The size of the car may be due to fitting the honda s2000 motor/trans... it's a fairly large/tall motor. I actually like the look better as the hood doesn't look so long and flat, plus the headlights are smaller and lower. Just a bit more modern looking to me.
Most of it will come down to emotion... which one gets the pulse to beat a little higher than the others. You do need to sit in them if at all possible.
Here's my favorite pic (with the fastest S2K in the nation in the backround).

[Evan]

Mondo, Thanks for your input.
The S2K's must be a hoot to drive and I believe that it will definitely give anyone the Seven experience. I have been admiring Chad's car and have been telling myself that it is how I would want to build mine if I ever got a S2K even before I finally came out of lurking. They have the pedigree of power and reliability that anyone can ask for with the Honda motor without the headaches but I just lean towards the look of the old Sevens.
Please dont tell Chad about me since he might lower his price more and I just might take the bait :)

[oilteq]

Has anybody had any experiences in dealing with wire wheel classic sportscars?




I bought my second Birkin from Hayes Harris at Wire Wheel. You cannot always tell how good a dealer is when everything goes smoothly. Not everything went smoothly for us, but it was not Hayes' fault. He went to bat for me and made it right. I would not hesitate to buy a car from him, and I recommend him highly.

I have owned two Birkins. I drove the first one for about 2 years and 5000 miles (? I forget the miles, but that cannot be far off). I sold it so I could build a more powerful car. I get an email from the current owner every once in a while. He has had it for 6 years, drives it on the street, and he is still happy with it.

I should have kept the second Birkin. The current owner traded his Caterham for it, and uses it for autocross and the occasional track day. Again, he is happy with the choice.

I drove one of the new wide-track IRS Birkins recently. Given the diminutive size and quality that I want, it seems to be the biggest bang for the buck. I want one.

Blaine

[Evan]

Blaine, thanks for the input on wire wheel and the Birkin. It's comforting to know that there is support when things go wrong :)

BTW, A friend of mine told me there's a Caterham R400 here in FL and I think it was the car advertised at Caterham USA and this time the dealer is asking $60,000+ :(

I'll be going to So. Florida tomorrow (Tuesday) and there's time, might have to check out the R400.