BECs or CECs... What's Better?

[BusaLoco]

So what is really better? ... Bigger (Car) Engines or Lighter (Bike) Engines? ... What's your poison?

[slngsht]

Great question! You and I need to trade rides to find out. I figure we have roughly the same power to weight ratio.



I'd say bike engined is more fun at the track, car engined is more fun as a daily street driver, but I have never driven a bike engined one.



I can tell you one thing for sure... All the car engined ones can go backwards http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/rofl.gif





http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrinjester.gif

[BusaLoco]

You may be right but if (when) I install the mechanical reverser I will be then able to drive backwards in 6 gears. (That's scary!)

[slngsht]

The only experience I have with BEC is Formula SAE. That was A BLAST...

[JohnCh]

If you are bored some evening, do a search on this subject on the WSCC boardroom, and then sit back with a big bag of popcorn and read the threads http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/smile5.gif



-John

[BusaLoco]

So this brings up an other interesting question.   ...

Is your car a CEC or a BEC?   ...   Seems to me that most of you folks have got car engines? ... Am I the only BEC owner on this forum?   ...   Does this mean that the boys at   >http://super7cars.com/ ( ) (Westfield, Deman, and others) haven't been able to sell even one car in the states?

[slngsht]

One might say mine qualifies as a truck engine http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif

5.7L V8 here. I had a smaller V8 in there before, and could still see the ground through the engine bay, and felt the car could use more power (or is it cow bell). That problem is solved now.

Not a traditional Seven approach, but I don't think about it much.

[JohnCh]

2.0L Duratec here. I am aware of two MegaBusas in the States. Not sure if there are any more.



Based on everthing I've read on WSCC about BEC vs. CEC, I think the latter is better for me. However, I would never go so far as to say it is better for everyone. I can easily see how someone could be seduced by the ridiculously low weight, the 10k+ redline, and the sequential gearbox.



-John   

[jfgw]

I agree with John, each to their own. I have a 2.0 VX built by QED which is fun, but being an ex-sports biker, I yearn for the 10k+ rpm and the sequential shift...Mind you, a UK based friend of mine runs a 400bhp cosworth turbo caterham which is ridiculous and when I am in that i couldnt care less about the 10k+rpm...



I think it is a combination of the handling and the power. If the car doesnt handle, the power is somewhat irrelevant, whereas a great deal of fun can be had in a finely balanced and appropriately powered 7, which i think was a big part of the reason for the 7 in the first place. Now, fine handling big-powered screamer with sequential box......drool!

[BusaLoco]

Well then, maybe I should reconsider the 1500cc build up (of a second engine) and go for the 350 HP Turbo Busa option.   ...   Or perhaps just build a mid engined ( a la Radical ) 350 HP Turbo Busa Kit!   ... Ya, that's it!   ... and while I'm at it, why not forget about the 4 banger Busa (turbo'd or not) and just go nuts with Powertec's new (twin) Busa V8 engine!



"http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/20061205_081646_hv8.jpg





   ...   I emailed these guys to get a price on their V8 and (to my surprise) they sent me a quote.

... Did you know that you can buy one of these (2.6L) 430BHP Screaming Strokers (Engine Only) for just $44,868.68 (US) and for an additional $5,916.75 US they will even throw in a 30 hour warranty!



You know what they say&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;... " The most fun you can have with your trousers on!" ... although somewhat soiled.<edited><editID>BusaLoco</editID><editDate>2006-12-05 08:37:11</editDate></edited>

[powderbrake]

I saw a couple of Demans run at Gateway Raceway here in St.Louis a couple years ago. One had a busa and one had a Honda blackwing?. They were very fast, and handled well. Like the MAN said, "Add lightness"

[slngsht]

30 hour warranty?

Just slightly better than 30 feet / 30 seconds, whichever comes first http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif



There are sequential tranny options for my big V8, but they are VERY cost prohibitive. I think the C5R/C6R trannies run something like $18K. Ofcourse they also handle 700 hp with no problem. Bit of an overkill.



There is also a company called Zeroshift that makes guts for the Tremec trannies to enable you to shift without the clutch if you choose to... you use the traditional clutch when you want, but can bang through the gears.

[BusaLoco]

Would that Man be Chap by any chance?

[BusaLoco]

Really, I'm just pulling your chain.

If I were a rich man (there's a song in there somewhere) I would drool after the Hayabusa V8 and the good chaps at powertec will offer you all goodies to put your rubber to the road (at a price).



engine!http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/20061205_085544_Powertec_RPA_Ma.jpg





...Sorry about that...Didn't know my own strength!



But the cold shrill breeze of reality tells me to Keep my legs in my 4 banger Busa Trousers and build up the 1500cc 250BHP Busa.



<edited><editID>BusaLoco</editID><editDate>2006-12-05 08:56:53</editDate></edited>

[slngsht]

http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/eek6.gif when you said $44K earlier, I didn't realize that was just for the engine!



I guess reading is fundumental http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/leaving.gif

[KENLUDE97]

Personally a Turbo screaming F20c (s2000 motor) would be perfect for me. However it is very cost probhitive :( So i settled on the L67. (i really want boost)



Personally a Car engined is better for me. I'm sick of having "no torque" I currently Auto-x a 1997 Prelude. And i have drove a car with no Reverse. Not fun. So it must have reverse.



Dennis over at http://dpcars.net/ is putting a V8 busa in a Ariel!! So if you are interested go over and check out his projects!

[BusaLoco]

Your right!

I've seen his site.

[slngsht]

If you are bored some evening, do a search on this subject on the WSCC boardroom, and then sit back with a big bag of popcorn and read the threads http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/smile5.gif



-John



John, I did that. http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif Those guys have a good sense of humor

[BusaLoco]

Oh by the way. I would like to take this opportunity to say Happy Birthday to General George Armstrong Custer on his 167th Birthday.

Well Done George!

[Al Navarro]

Those Super7Cars cars...



BusaLoco, I was interested in David's cars and did a little DD on importing from Canada. Didn't look especially promising for regular new cars, so I thought it might be near impossible with a BECat. And I know from experience that even my CECat wasn't that easy to get approved in NJ (titling and such).



There is a guy in Pittsburgh who has a bike engined car...and another guy I know from the Jalopnik site in Michigan. I think these were both home builts

[BusaLoco]

I know, I originally wanted to purchase the busa Super7cars.com (Caterham)7 as a project kit so that I could build it with my 2 kids.

David, in his very own way, pointed out that they do not offer their Busa 7 as a kit.

It seemed a little odd to me seeing that Caterham's business model was founded on kit cars, but what can you do?

He did mention that they might be willing to sell me the unassembled car ( at full assembled price) let me assemble it, then let me truck the assembled car back to them (250 miles) for them to bless it with holy water before I got the car road registered.

I respectively declined the offer and went on the hunt for another Busa powered N.A. kit and settled on Deman.

The car has been a wonderful family project and one could say it's been absolutely Super.<edited><editID>BusaLoco</editID><editDate>2006-12-06 19:54:50</editDate></edited>

[locostv8]

...There are sequential tranny options for my big V8, but they are VERY cost prohibitive. I think the C5R/C6R trannies run something like $18K. Ofcourse they also handle 700 hp with no problem. Bit of an overkill.



There is also a company called Zeroshift that makes guts for the Tremec trannies to enable you to shift without the clutch if you choose to... you use the traditional clutch when you want, but can bang through the gears.



G Force produces an upgrade for the T5 that "the G-Force T-5 kit will handle roughly 600 hp or 500 ft-lb. or torque in a 3300 lb. vehicle running drag radials at the track with a moderate clutch upgrade.".



This is available in a dogface and a road race dogface is under development. http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp

[slngsht]

G Force produces an upgrade for the T5 that "the G-Force T-5 kit will handle roughly 600 hp or 500 ft-lb. or torque in a 3300 lb. vehicle running drag radials at the track with a moderate clutch upgrade.".



This is available in a dogface and a road race dogface is under development. http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp



http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif



I just posted that for another one our members who I also talk to on LS1Tech.com...



One of the Rotus guys runs a g-force modded T5, and very happy with it.



It isn't a sequential though (I know you know that)



http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/cheers2.gif

[locostv8]

Sure it is , first then second then third then fourth then fifth.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/crazy.gif



I'm debating going AWD on Shagnasty to keep it more or less pointed straight ahead, that would seem to be an oprotunity to try the dogfaced setup.

[Al Navarro]

Here's a double Gixxer Tiger Seven...5th Gear TV show clip (via Jalopnik)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGq7-cMw5Ws&eurl=

[BusaLoco]

Kool! Being a BEC Guy, I have seen this car.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;More power but a real squeeze to fit in and it's more weight thoo. (my Busa engine and Tranny weigh 173 lbs.)

My kid (the mechanic) wants to fuse 2 (Yamaha) Vmax's or 2 Honda 45 degree "Vtec"(RC51's) to create a "V"8 for our car.

With the Vmax's he figures we can populate about 260 hp by siamesing the two crank shafts.

It should fit under the bonnet much easier than the 2 "Kawa's" (laying side by each).

[darth g-f]

Funny you guys talk about Super7cars.com

I own the first car built by them.



You can see me race it in those videos:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=caterham+hayabusa



Videos don't show true speed. i'm going 105mph at the end of both straights and I'm just 4sec off the track record set by a F2000 race car.

[manik]

Shameless plug about the Westfield Megabusa - they are available in the U.S. through Manik. We also are working with a busa engine builder who can produce everything from a stock engine, up to a 300HP mill, tubros, you name it.



One neat thing that you can do with the sequential gearboxes on the BECs (and sequential gearbox equipped CECs) is to use a semi-automatic gearshift setup. Get some shifter paddles for the steering column and you basically have the same setup as an F1 car. Basically http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/smile5.gif



Requisite Megabusa at the Nurburgring video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PbVdS101GtM





tom

www.manikllc.com

[andrew7]

Hi guys, dad and I built a 7 last winter with an 2005 R1 motor and with mechanical paddles. It weighs a little more than a 1000 lbs. Its a blast and it lives for corners. I took a Dr. friend for a spin and he compared it to an amusement park ride. Point it down a straight road before you try to hit 14k rpm. The day after a long ride our necks normally hurt . Now for the bad news, It has no bottom end torque. my original gears were 3:08 and I had to make sure I didn't stop on or near a hill, most of the time I had to drive like it was an F1 car just to keep it moving in town. Now with 4:11's, hills are better but the tranny is so closely space with no overdrive. It only takes 5mins on a turnpike with the engine turning 7-8k to get the droning stuck in your ears. Its a perfect track car but how much track car can you stand driving around your town. Several conversations came up about switching engines to be more streetable. I have decided to leave it be. I would like to go for a ride in a normal 7 just to compare, hopefully at the ralley next year. I may upset some people here, my car has about 175 hp and it goes Ludicrous Speed, my aunts C5 feels so slow. I have never wanted more power. Why does everybody feel they need 300+ hp for the street? The new CSR has 220 to 260hp and it is setting track records. Only you can decide which motor you need but be careful what you wish for. Merry Christmas.

[slngsht]

Andrew, I have the opposite "problem" Sometimes I shift out of boredom http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif At the last autox school, one of the instructor drove my car for a few laps. On one lap he accidentally started in 3rd, and went to 4th gear. When the run was done, I asked him if he realized he just ran 3rd and 4th, instead of 1st and 2nd. He said he thought the car sounded different http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif





I'm still looking for more power. Why? I don't know. I want to know what it feels like.

[stevet]

I remember this topic coming up on Blatchat from time to time (and when it did it ran, and ran, as you would expect). The majority vote last time I looked was for the 'humble' 1.6 superlight (140 bhp) as it was seen to have the best power/price/handling mix. But that was before the R300/400 and the new CRS models.

[locostv8]

Andrew, I have the opposite "problem" Sometimes I shift out of boredom http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif At the last autox school, one of the instructor drove my car for a few laps. On one lap he accidentally started in 3rd, and went to 4th gear. When the run was done, I asked him if he realized he just ran 3rd and 4th, instead of 1st and 2nd. He said he thought the car sounded different http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif





I'm still looking for more power. Why? I don't know. I want to know what it feels like.







One of the advantages of being a bit over powered. Out of curiosity were his lap times that different?<edited><editID>locostv8</editID><editDate>2006-12-08 22:17:06</editDate></edited>

[slngsht]

Out of curiosity were his lap times that different?



To be honest, this guy (at the EVO school) wasn't very good. My times were better.



The school I normally go to (SCCA DC Region - Brian Garfield) has an awesome instructor. I have yet to see him not post a faster time than the owner of the car. He beat my time in my vette by 1.5 seconds (40 second run) the first time he drove it. I can't wait for him to give it a shot.