Caterham USA Pricing

[jturrell]

I've been looking at Caterhams for a while now and I was hoping someone might shed some light on what I perceive as big differences in the prices in the UK vs. the US.

If we look at a basic Superlight R300, this car goes for about 24,000 pounds in the UK. At today's exchange rate of around 1.49, that's roughly $37,500. I believe this is with engine & transmission and fully assembled. (Please tell me if this is incorrect in the UK.)

If I look at the same car in the states, it's $43,420, unassembled with no engine or transmission. If we assume around $8,000 for engine and transmission and about $5,000 for assembly, we're up to $56,420. That's a difference of almost $19,000.

Some questions:

1) Are my assumptions correct? Is that what I would expect to pay for an engine / transmission package from Caterham?

2) Why such a huge price difference, assuming my assumptions are reasonably close?

3) Is Caterham selling many new cars in the states?

I'd love to own one some day, but the prices seem a little out-of-touch. Am I wrong?


EDIT - I just saw that the factory build is a 2,500 pound option. So we're off on pricing by around $15,250, and not $19,000. Still a wide margin though.

[yellowss7]

And depending on engine spec and gearbox choice, I think your $8K is way light.

I tried to price one last night. and I came in around $62K+ for a superlight with 200 hp. (Guessing on the engine, but the Cosworth site has that engine at over 10K alone)

Oh, and BTW that doesn't inclued State tax and shipping (where applicable, and I had to pay Custom duties when I picked mine up. Just noticed you're in Texas so State tax doesn't apply to you.

For reference, in 2000, all in my Superlight with 6 speed and approx 200 horsepower, was about $55k.

Tom

[JohnCh]

$8000 does sound really low. The R300 comes with the 6–speed which is about 2500GBP directly from Caterham. My guess is that the price of the R300 Duratec (which must be pretty basic given the 175hp output) will be similar to the outgoing SVT, which I think was about $11-12k with a 6-speed. I’m sure someone here will chime in with the actual price.

As for currency fluctuations, it’s a tricky game. Go back just 4 months to July 18th and the GBP was worth $2, or 33% more than today. If Caterham USA were to adjust the price down from the July numbers to account for the renewed strength of the USD and keep their margins constant, then the poor guy who bought his car 4 months ago would have just taken a massive depreciation hit. His $60,000 car in July would now cost just $45,000 new, which means his car’s resale value took an additional $15k hit. I don’t think he would be very happy.

Tying the price of the car directly to the GBP also means that the car price keeps changing while the potential buyer is deciding whether or not to purchase. My bet is that the sales cycle for a se7en is fairly long. Sure some people make the decision quickly, but based on what I have seen on the various forums, people seem to think about the purchase for quite a while before placing an order. Throwing currency fluctuations into the mix increases the complexity of the buy decisions. If the GBP is decreasing, then the buyer may hold off making the purchase because he’s hoping the price will fall further if he waits just a little longer. Long sales cycles are not good for sellers due to externalities that can affect the purchase (customer faces unexpected expenses, has a job change, wife files for divorce because he is spending too much time obsessing about the se7en rather than paying attention her, etc.) If the USD is declining, then the level of the financial commitment is increasing before the customer’s eyes and he may find himself priced out of the market by the time he is mentally ready to pull the trigger.

-John

[scannon]

Consider that Caterham makes a profit on every car it manufactures while Caterham USA makes a profit on a small percentage of those cars.

In addition, Caterham USA has to add on import duties, broker fees, freight across the pond as well as freight to either Denver or direct to the customer. There are probably a few other expenses I'm not aware of. It doesn't surprise me that they cost so much more in the USA.

Skip

[manik]

John and Skip are absolutely correct. There are a lot of additional costs and factors involved, and you really cannot compare U.K. and U.S. pricing unfortunately.


tm

[pksurveyor]

The difference is around $ 16,000 to $ 18,000 between the UK and USA pricing. The additional cost comes from oversea freight, custom duty, packing expense, dollar vs. pound, and engine choice. My 2009 Caterham SV is near $ 70,000 by the time all the numbers are added up.

[BusaNostra]

If you are really serious buying a seven:

Here is what I did, I bought a cheapticket. Went for a short vacation in England.
I went to the factory, bought the whole 9 yards (no engine-no tranny). They helped
box the kit with no charge. Send the box to their shipping broker (paid the shipper). I picked the box
at the airport cargo (here in the US). I only paid $250. to the custom because they declared
the box as an auto parts.

I saved a ton.

[Ian7]

I've been looking at Caterhams for a while now ...

A lot depends on what you want the car for. Differences between England and USA notwithstanding, the $ range I don't understand is the difference across Caterham models.
Sure you can option up a $75k+ killer car, but there are some really nice Zetec's for sale for under $30k, and its hard to believe that they aren't wonderfully enjoyable.
(My live axle x-flow might be too spartan / slow /crude for some, but it too is a blast to drive).

[jturrell]

I understand shipping, customs, etc, and I would expect a difference in price appropriate for those costs. But if you look at other British car manufacturers, the price gap is much narrower. For example, a new Lotus Elise SC has a price difference of about $3,750.

To put it in perspective . . . . in the UK, a new Superlight R300 would be about $9,000 LESS than a Lotus Elise SC.
In the US, it's the other way around. The R300 would cost much more.

My theory? Lotus has made a committment to selling a lot of cars in the US. Caterham has not. I keep wondering if that will change as the world economy deteriorates? I think I'm too much of a bargain shopper to ever own a Caterham.

[yellowss7]

Ian, is right on. I'm glad I speced my car the way I did, But I paid top dollar to do it.

You can buy a very nice car like Al's old one,(sorry, Mopho's) and get a great deal compared to specing a new one at the same level.

An I know it's contra to the party line, but 150 hp is plenty for a street going/autoxing seven. Even though I like the power level of mine, I've driven 135-150hp cars that seemed to handle better because I couldn't overdrive them. IMO.

If you're into the build process, you could alway disasemble the used one,clean it up and put it back together. You get the same experience and you're sure that you have all the parts. (that's not a given with a new kit btw) As I've said before, the Caterhams are like a toy model kit. If you have all the pieces, it's just putting them together. It's not like the projects that some of the really talented people on this board have completed.

The one that's listed in Hemmings looks like a nice car for $28K and It's Yellow too,so what's not to like. Tom

Plus you can always upgrade as the urge hits.

[jturrell]

If you are really serious buying a seven:

Here is what I did, I bought a cheapticket. Went for a short vacation in England.
I went to the factory, bought the whole 9 yards (no engine-no tranny). They helped
box the kit with no charge. Send the box to their shipping broker (paid the shipper). I picked the box
at the airport cargo (here in the US). I only paid $250. to the custom because they declared
the box as an auto parts.

I saved a ton.

Now, if I can figure out a way to make the trip to England a business trip, I'll really save some money . . . . :)

I'm glad to know this might be an option. It's pretty clear that shipping, customs, etc, don't add up to the price difference. The exchange rate is certainly part of the equation, but as that gets better, your solution just provides additional savings.

[jturrell]

You can buy a very nice car like Al's old one,(sorry, Mopho's) and get a great deal compared to specing a new one at the same level.


If I could go back in time and beat Mopho to the punch on Al's car, I would. Before that transaction there were even better deals (several Superlights traded hands in the $35k range). Unfortunately, those prices are no longer a reality, and cars like Mopho's don't come on the market very often. I have unsuccessfully tried to talk more than one person on this board out of their Superlight . . . . :)

[Ian7]

A lot depends on what you want the car for. Differences between England and USA notwithstanding, the $ range I don't understand is the difference across Caterham models.
Sure you can option up a $75k+ killer car, but there are some really nice Zetec's for sale for under $30k, and its hard to believe that they aren't wonderfully enjoyable.
(My live axle x-flow might be too spartan / slow /crude for some, but it too is a blast to drive).

... and I should have addressed your primary concern:

I too cannot fathom the difference as it crosses the pond. I've shipped entire cars from england without the benefit of economies of scale or wholesale pricing, etc and it sure isn't $15k.

I guess what it truly reflects is free market economy,
"I've got this, I want this much for it; too much for you? fine, don't buy it" attitude.

I wanted a Caterham bad enough to pay 30, but not bad enough to pay 60. Everyone's got their window of tolerance ;)

[pksurveyor]

I agreed with Yellowss7 - "I know it's contra to the party line, but 150 hp is plenty for a street going/autoxing seven. Even though I like the power level of mine, I've driven 135-150hp cars that seemed to handle better because I couldn't overdrive them. "

My silver Caterham with the 147 hp Zetec is easier to drive on the street and it is plenty fast on the track. My green Caterham with 205 hp SVT is faster but it requires a little more fitness around town to be smooth.

[yellowss7]

Just remember that the "Superlight" was a level of options. All Seven's have the same basic chassis. The Superlight spec had carbon dash, wings, etc. Check out the standard items list on Caterham's website. It lists the standard and optional items.

The original UK superlight was a 133 horsepowered version. The Superlight R was a 190. The R500 was 242 hp.

They later rebadged them as R300, R400, R500.

My 2000 superlight did come with a numbered badge for the dash that shows it as Superlight #123. Other than that, you could spec or buy the options to get to that level of trim. If you look at mine, you'll see that I added the clamshell front wings, and I also have the widetrack front suspension, which, from what I was told, I was the first to do that. Normally, widetrack is just for the cycle wing setup.

Even then, some of the options are probably unnecessary, like the upgraded ventilated front discs and big brakes. Again IMO.

[BusaNostra]

"Now, if I can figure out a way to make the trip to England a business trip, I'll really save some money . . . . "



Don't tell the Congress you are also taking a private plane.:lol:

By the way, the big three will not appreciate you buying Caterham.
They need your money in Detroit!!

[Boxologist]

"Now, if I can figure out a way to make the trip to England a business trip, I'll really save some money . . . . "



Don't tell the Congress you are also taking a private plane.:lol:

By the way, the big three will not appreciate you buying Caterham.
They need your money in Detroit!!

while se7ens may be made north of teh border, there ain't no se7ens being made in detroit. or anything close to it yet.

edit: every time i price out a new Caterham, i end up close to the 80-90k region because with my first 7 i've realised what i want. Everything. well, maybe the heater can be skipped.:yesnod:

[Doug Bond]

In process of building a Caterham Roadsport with 210 duratec, and seveal upgrades which include wide track/superlight suspension, LSD, Carbon dash and more. Finished car will be same as a Superlight without the carbon fenders and racing seats. Yes, I could wait several years and hope the dollar continues to drop against the pound but I wouldnt have my car. Ive waited for this car since I was 20 years old so why wait. Get it if you want it or keep waiting thinking the price will drop. It wont. Look at the price of these cars 20 years ago. They dont go down

[MHKflyer52]

Ive waited for this car since I was 20 years old so why wait. Get it if you want it or keep waiting thinking the price will drop. It wont. Look at the price of these cars 20 years ago. They dont go down

Well said Doug and by the way glad to hear that your building a 7 and have joined this forum.
When you get the time post up some photos of your build as a lot of the members will appreciate seeing the photos of your car.

[jturrell]

Get it if you want it or keep waiting thinking the price will drop.

Doug - congrats on your car. I can certainly appreciate the buy it now and enjoy it now approach. I've been there. But having been the victim of British car depreciation in the past, I don't want to pay more than I have to. If that means I need to wait for a good deal or get creative on where I source the car . . . well, I've learned to be patient.

Just one more illustration of my point, and I'll stop beating this dead horse . . .

- An R500 in the UK costs about $57,000.
- An R500 in the States costs about $61,000.

What's the difference? In the UK, you get an engine and transmission (and a few grand left in your pocket). :yesnod:

[MoPho]

I agreed with Yellowss7 - "I know it's contra to the party line, but 150 hp is plenty for a street going/autoxing seven. Even though I like the power level of mine, I've driven 135-150hp cars that seemed to handle better because I couldn't overdrive them. "

My silver Caterham with the 147 hp Zetec is easier to drive on the street and it is plenty fast on the track. My green Caterham with 205 hp SVT is faster but it requires a little more fitness around town to be smooth.

I have not found 200hp to be difficult to drive at all, find it just right actually. The only difficulty is in ones self control, which I fail miserably at :cool:


Jake is coming off a pretty bad ass Radical, so I imagine a lower horsepower 7 is not going to do it for him.



.

[BusaNostra]

Jturrell

Is A used one an option? http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/list.asp?p=1&s=39

In my opinion, $61, for any seven not worth buying.
Just me.

The only incentive you will get (with this type of car) is driving with "joy"
It's hard to correlate or justify value vs joy.
I don't look at any seven as future investment with a good return.
If I blow my money to a seven...that's it, don't expect depreciation....gone!
But my satisfaction driving 7 remains.

Buy a used one, sleep well and join the club.

[Kitcat]

Bad investment? My 8/63 Road and Track has an ad for a "Lotus Race Set" for $19, 885. Included was a Seven ($2,885); Lotus 22 ($5,965); Lotus 23 ($6,255); Elite ($4,780). These were also considered steep prices back then but think of what these would be worth today:).

[Ian7]

Jturrell

Is A used one an option? http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/list.asp?p=1&s=39

Buy a used one, sleep well and join the club.

Doesn't a used car have to be at least 25 years old to be legally imported to the US? Up here it's 15 years...

[BusaNostra]

Doesn't a used car have to be at least 25 years old to be legally imported to the US? Up here it's 15 years...

If I am not mistaken (someone can correct me), you can import any car in the world, bring to the US,
but does not mean you will be able to register until you meet EPA, DOT or U.S. safety standards.


Just like buying a kit car or clone.....you know how hard to register this sucker?
My car registration probaly up the value of my clone. My clone itself has no value...hahaha!

[scannon]

If I am not mistaken (someone can correct me), you can import any car in the world, bring to the US,
but does not mean you will be able to register until you meet EPA, DOT or U.S. safety standards.


Just like buying a kit car or clone.....you know how hard to register this sucker?
My car registration probaly up the value of my clone. My clone itself has no value...hahaha!


You would not be able to register a Se7en in the US if you imported a complete car newer than 1967. You could take it apart, ship it and then put it together again here and register it as a kit car. However in Colorado (and probably most other states) you have to show paperwork that you purchased the engine and trans from someone other than the person or dealer you bought the car from.

Single car certification (the gray market) in the USA went away years ago. If you want to go to the expense and the car was not a model ever sold here you can apply for type certification but that only works if you are going to import and sell a decent volume of cars of the same type to defray the costs of the testing and certification. The Smart cars that came in years before the official imports were done that way. They cost about double what they sold for in Europe.

Skip

[Alaskossie]

Scannon is basically right -- a complete car is difficult to import, unless it is 25 or more years old at the time of import (the 1967 deadline is no longer the benchmark; the 25-year rule is).

I speak from experience. I imported a 1980 M-B Unimog in 2005 with no problems from EPA or DOT. However, in 2001 I attempted to import a 1990 8X8 diesel truck from UK, that had an EPA-exempt diesel engine. The truck sat in bonded storage at the Port of Anchorage for more than 4 years (at $150 per month) while I argued with EPA and U.S. Customs over whether it should be classed as an "on-road vehicle with an off-road engine" (not importable), or an "off-road vehicle with an off-road engine" (importable if its max. speed is 25 mph or less). The EPA functionaries in DC were (and are) clueless about anything mechanical, but they throw their weight around like they are experts.

Busanostra wrote,

If I am not mistaken (someone can correct me), you can import any car in the world, bring to the US,
but does not mean you will be able to register until you meet EPA, DOT or U.S. safety standards.

That is not correct -- registration is the last step, a state-level function, once the vehicle has been released buy the Feds (if it is released). Until it is released, it sits in a no-man's land of bonded storage -- technically not yet physically entered into the USA. During this time US Customs tells you repeatedly that you have a deadline to either take the vehicle to a certified modification/conversion specialist to get it altered to meet US specs; re-export it back to where it came from or somewhere else; involuntarily allow US Customs to auction it off for re-export; or cut it up for scrap on the docks. Some choices....

Alaskossie

[BusaNostra]

I went to England and bought my Westfield.
They boxed and shipped in the US without engine and tranny. Declared auto parts.
Picked it, paid the custom & build the car. I met the requirement...boooom, I got my registration.
I guess it depends upon many scenarios. Commerical, personal, industrial use or kits??? You name it,
read the bible book of the custom. Too many interpretations.
Just like what you said, you think you are right & arguing for 4 years, you think the EPA is clueless?

[athens7]

Time or money; you spend one or the other. If you buy from Caterham USA, or a Caterham dealer, your only hassle is the state titling & registration (not necessarily without trauma-it took me 11 months to get my title!). Or, based on some of the anecdotes in this thread, you can do all the importing yourself and deal with the Feds, the shipper, etc. Also, the Caterham USA driveline will be, in most respects, ready to install and compatible with your chassis, vs. a complete engineer-it-yourself project. I've not for a single day regreted my purchase, but the car is a special purpose instrument and should not be bought new unless it's exactly what you want. The resale is fine, AFTER the initial depreciation, which seems to be substantial. I haven't seen a used Caterham change hands for over $50k, and this thread certianly illustrates what a well equipped new 7 costs, so it's not hard to do the depreciation math.

[pksurveyor]

When you buy a Caterham in UK, you need to pay the Queen 17.5% VAT. It is a lot more than the sales tax we pay here in the USA.

[slomove]

When you buy a Caterham in UK, you need to pay the Queen 17.5% VAT. It is a lot more than the sales tax we pay here in the USA.

True, but in the European Union the VAT is usually included in the listed price, except for business-to-business sales.
That means if you buy something for export out of the EU you can even get the 17.5% back (or not pay in the first place).

[BusaNostra]

Before I went to England, I contacted Westfield. I wired half of the money before I travelled. When I got there,
I paid the whole amount. I didn't pay any VAT. The original order was from the U.S.A.
There are so many things you can do to avoid this and that.

[jturrell]

Interesting. I just received an e-mail stating the following:

The new Caterham package comes with everything you need except an engine block and transmission. The old price required you to purchase an entire engine. The Duratec blocks are around $2,000.

This makes me feel a little better.

- Jake

[Doug Bond]

Yes it should. I sent you the email regarding the above. Take a look at the download for the various packages/cars from Caterham. You will note under the Roadsport, Superlight etc it states "ancillary" items after the different engine packages. You need to compare apples with apples which explains why the price of the cars appear more expensive but they come with everything you need to bolt onto the engine block which you must provide. Good Luck. Fight the Power

[yellowss7]

It's also interesting to note that the Carbon Fiber nosecone and rear wings are now options on the US superlights.

Tom

[MoPho]

Interesting. I just received an e-mail stating the following:

The new Caterham package comes with everything you need except an engine block and transmission. The old price required you to purchase an entire engine. The Duratec blocks are around $2,000.

This makes me feel a little better.

- Jake


It says on their website:
Kit includes all parts to assemble Superlight R400 including all engine and transmission installation parts and ancillaries, with the exception of a bare 2.0L Ford Duratec engine and a 5 or 6-spd transmission. Customer to supply bare 2.0L Ford Duratec engine and transmission separately.


Sounds like it is more than just the block, it's the whole engine you have to buy.

[Doug Bond]

Guys you can go back and forth what you need to supply i.e. engine, whole engine, block etc. or you can call UK Caterham and ask them.

[scannon]

Sounds like it is more than just the block, it's the whole engine you have to buy.



For $2,000 it better be at least a short block or even a long block engine.

I was talking to Ben at RMSC/Caterham USA a couple of months ago about this. He said they were trying to get Ford to sell them a Duratec engine without the parts that have to be replaced to go into a Caterham. Sounds like they have been successful.

Skip

[MoPho]

For $2,000 it better be at least a short block or even a long block engine.

I was talking to Ben at RMSC/Caterham USA a couple of months ago about this. He said they were trying to get Ford to sell them a Duratec engine without the parts that have to be replaced to go into a Caterham. Sounds like they have been successful.

Skip

So what exactly is included as ancillaries besides the starter and alternator? Is the intake system included in that?

In my book, a block means there is no head on it http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/533.gif

The engine and transmission package for the CSR260 we tested a couple of years ago was $20k, The 200hp Zetec engine and 6-speed transmission package was $13k, I can't imagine the price went down since then.

$2k seems cheap to me, but then again the engine rebuild on my Elan was over $10k :cry: (anyone want to buy an Elan?)

[Alaskossie]

Check with Ben at Rocky Mountain Sports cars, but I believe (after talking to him last month) that their price for a Caterham now includes all of the "go faster" parts that are needed to bring a cooking Duratec crate motor (supplied by the customer who purchases directly from Ford) up to Caterham performance specs; and the unneeded stock parts are simply stripped off the Duratec and replaced with the performance parts that came as part of the Caterham kit.

Due to DOT/EPA regulations and certification/crash test requirements, RMSC cannot supply the entire car, even if it is in pieces. The customer has to supply the engine and transmission, which he purchases directly from Ford or somewhere.

I bought my kit from RMSC in 2007, my transmission from the US Caterham distributor, and my tuned Duratec 2.3 from Cosworth USA.

Tom

[Ian7]

I bought my kit from RMSC in 2007,
Tom


hopefully not a highjack, but I just love the idea of someone in Alaska with a 7; and I thought our season was short :d

[Alaskossie]

Ian,

The car is still in Colorado, being assembled (slowly). Don't forget, in Alaska our season may be short, but our summer daylight hours are long...!

(At least, That's what I keep telling myself!).

Tom

[yellowss7]

Hey Tom, aren't your roads also in a perpetual state of repair due to the tough winters?

I've made quite a few trips from Anchorage and/or Fairbanks to Denali and I can't remember a trip without road repair work going on. :eek:

And watchout for those occasional Moose. Although if you time it right I guess you can go thru the legs with plenty of room to spare. :rofl: Tom

[ayseven]

Now THAT made for a good reading!

I figure you can save a bit here and there by looking around, but the used market seems the best deal. Upgrades for carbon fibre whatsits are available from many sources, and may be a lot less than from the official dealer - there are at least 3 reputable CF online shops in the UK I can think of (Carbon Mods, Fluke Motorsport and Demon Tweeks). In Canada at least, importing a kit or newer used is a risky business - you might not get your car from customs if they get difficult. If our dollar keeps it's rate, you also might want to call the Super7Cars people in BC for a BC registered/inspected new one - you might save a lot on the exchange.

[mb230s]

Newbie here - great forum.

The British Pound hit a 6.5 year low today against the US Dollar.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUKTRE4BT1Q120081230

I wouldn't at all be surprised if it drops at least another 10%.

[Andrew]

Lets hope the exchange rate improves in our favor, its about the only way i will be able to afford another one. Its either that or wait the long cockpits (otherwise i will not fit comfortably) to become 25 years old and bring one back from my homeland. and quite honestly the prices are resonable there at the moment for the old ones so here's hoping. $70k for a 7 really gets away from the clubman racer concept for that kind of money one can buy some serious machinary.

[DB6]

Ok, so from Ben at Caterham USA today.

Caterham USA is re-setting it,s dealer net work(some go, some new, some old stay)web sites for RMMS and CatUSAQ will be updated soon to show this,it is however taking them longer than expected to do these changes, but they intend to be around for some time to come.

Rocky Sports is not dealing in Caterham anymore,(stiill dealing in sports cars and Formula Ford stuff tho)

All calls for cars or parts should go to Caterham USA tel 303 765 0247.

Cat USAsite:


http://www.uscaterham.com/


It is ok to use the parts price list at RMMS in the meantime.

Old Rocky web site with parts list:

http://www.rmsci.com/

He also stated that as their parts prices were pegged at last up date at $1.75 to the pound and it went as high as $2.00 this summer which hurt them, they intend to stay at current prices across the board while rates hover around the $1.50 level.


Hope this helps
David

[mb230s]

The British Pound is down to $1.39 today.